THE GARDEN is my favourite escape from stress, in fact, however as I’ve confessed earlier than on the podcast, I typically succumb to the lure of swiping my approach via Instagram throughout non-garden hours, like so many thousands and thousands of us modern-day residents.
Currently, I’ve been having fun with the quick, information-packed movies from at this time’s visitor, a gardener who goes by the display screen title of Flora & Frost, and because of the way in which Instagram works, I can see that a variety of my keenest backyard pals additionally comply with her. So I assumed I’d invite her over to speak awhile and get to know her higher.
Flora & Frost’s actual title, like mine, is Margaret, and he or she is definitely a physician primarily based in Minnesota. In addition to having a reputation in frequent, we apparently share the inclination for happening analysis rabbit holes, looking for solutions to all of the questions that the expertise of gardening and being in nature elicits in us.
Learn alongside as you take heed to the Oct. 28, 2024 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant under. You’ll be able to subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).
(Dragonfly picture high of web page by Flora & Frost.)
backyard esoterica, with flora & frost
Margaret Roach: Had been you named for a grandmother Margaret as I used to be? [Laughter.]
Flora & Frost: Nicely, a grandmother and mom. I’m really the eighth Margaret in my household, imagine it or not. Yeah.
Margaret: Oh, O.Ok. So that you see, now we have all this in frequent. [Laughter.]
Flora & Frost: Sure. Completely.
Margaret: And I ought to say to individuals, due to your function as a doctor, you don’t use your final title on social media, only for privateness causes and so forth and discretion. So that you’re Flora & Frost, you’re Margaret Flora & Frost.
Flora & Frost: Sure. Proper. I all the time say, “It’s not as a result of I’m significantly mysterious, it’s simply because if somebody’s Googling me, I don’t need an unhinged video of me speaking about vultures to be the very first thing that pops up.
Margaret: Precisely. And we’ll get to that vultures video. [Laughter.] So that you’ve been gardening how lengthy? You’re in Minnesota, I feel you’re a Zone 4B, 5A-ish?
Flora & Frost: Right. I’m proper in slightly microclimate, as a result of we’re in Minneapolis, so the airport and all the things else makes it a 5A fairly than a 4B, which is all over the place surrounding us. Nevertheless it will get chilly. [Laughter.] [Photo above from Flora & Frost’s garden.]
Margaret: And also you’ve been at it since not that lengthy, actually? Perhaps 5 years or so?
Flora & Frost: Yeah, about 5 years. It began, I feel, the yr earlier than Covid, which was a pleasant time to get a brand new pastime that then I may do at dwelling.
Margaret: Sure. Not that we have been all at dwelling or something.
Flora & Frost: Oh my God.
Margaret: Oh my goodness. And is it decorative, or greens, or a few of all the things, or how would you-
Flora & Frost: I do some little bit of all the things and it modifications annually. So final yr it was an enormous concentrate on flowers. This yr we had slightly bit extra in the way in which of veggies. And yearly I add an increasing number of perennials and significantly natives.
Margaret: And have you ever had frost but on the market?
Flora & Frost: We’ve not, fortunately. It’s been good to get pleasure from my flowers.
Margaret: Oh, good. Good, good, good. So, for me, fairly fast, after I started gardening, which was many many years in the past, I spotted the largest backyard harvest of all was this limitless provide of the query, “Why, why, why?” [Laughter.] It was like my curiosity turned insatiable as soon as I began hanging round outdoors with vegetation, and bugs, and birds, and such. And all the things I checked out or touched prompted one other query. “Why, why, why, why, why?” And was that what occurred to you? Since you do these movies which might be form of, as I mentioned within the introduction, like these little journeys down the rabbit holes on specific matters.
Flora & Frost: Proper. Completely. I obtained into gardening initially after ending residency, which, as you could know, is a extremely intensive time, plenty of work hours. I lastly obtained into an everyday profession, the place I had slightly bit extra free time, and I had no thought what to do with myself. [Laughter.] I actually keep in mind Googling “hobbies for adults,” as a result of it was simply so international to me to have this free time. And I assumed, nicely, gardening sounds good. It’ll get me outdoors, it’s one thing I can do with my household.
However actually, the factor that has saved me with it’s, yeah, this limitless provide of enjoyable information, getting myself extra linked to my environment, and I discover that the an increasing number of I study what I’m seeing, the extra I change into in it.
Margaret: Sure. And in one among your Instagram posts, you inform this anecdote about, I feel they have been from the 1870s, these two people, John and Anna Comstock. [John Comstock, above; photo from Wikimedia Commons.]
Flora & Frost: Comstock, sure.
Margaret: And I feel there’s a touch in that of why you do that Instagram account. Are you able to relay that to us?
Flora & Frost: Completely.
Margaret: Yeah.
Flora & Frost: Yeah. So John and Anna Comstock have been a married couple. John was a well-known entomologist who was really one of many first, or the primary, entomology teacher at Cornell College. He confirmed up as a scholar they usually didn’t have an entomology professor [laughter] and knew so much about it. And so, the opposite college students have been like, “Can he simply educate us?” And so they allowed it, as a result of it was the 1800s.
And he obtained married to one among his college students, not super-scandalous, he was nonetheless younger and a brand new teacher on the time. And each of them collectively did plenty of analysis in entomology, however Anna particularly, she was the primary feminine professor at Cornell and did plenty of engraving work, learning bugs. However she obtained actually into instructing individuals about nature as a solution to have them care extra about their setting and be extra intensive stewards of their setting.
And that’s actually my intent with plenty of these movies, is I feel we get so disconnected with our environment, even when they’re issues we’re seeing daily, that I discover the extra I study them, the extra I care about them. And I hope that that’s the case with different individuals studying about their setting as nicely.
Margaret: Sure. Nicely, I do know that, for me, I’ve liked… Once more, as a result of it was so acquainted to me, the expertise that you just’re having, and I really like that you just have been 5 years into gardening and I used to be considering, “Sure, sure, sure. I requested about that too then.” [Laughter.] And naturally, you could have many various rabbit holes you went down, however there have been some that have been frequent, and it was enjoyable.
I feel you probably did your first Instagram publish within the fall of 2021, and now you could have 96,000-plus followers.
Flora & Frost: Proper.
Margaret: You will have this different profession, as you’ve defined, that you just skilled for, it’s not such as you’re attempting to be a social-media influencer full time or something like that. [Laughter.]
Flora & Frost: I’ve been shocked by the variety of those that have adopted me, sure. I actually began this account as a result of I had a private Instagram account that I nonetheless have for household and pals, and I discovered I used to be posting about gardening so much. And I assumed, “Numerous these individuals aren’t going to be super-interested on this.”
Margaret: Proper.
Flora & Frost: So I began a special one, and I assumed, “In the event that they’re keen on gardening, they’ll comply with that.” And I made it public, as a result of I wasn’t speaking about something private, and it has simply exploded, which is mind-boggling, however I’m actually glad persons are having fun with it.
Margaret: Yeah. And your matters vary from seed-starting ideas, to American meals historical past, to these vultures we have been speaking about for a second there. Talking of birds with disgusting desk manners. [Laughter.] [Turkey vulture photo from Wikimedia.]
Flora & Frost: Yeah.
Margaret: So how would you describe your style, your most important areas of curiosity?
Flora & Frost: It’s wherever my mind is taking me in the intervening time, to be sincere, but it surely began out extra issues in my quick neighborhood, in my backyard, and I’ll have a query that pops into my head. This occurs on a regular basis in conversations with pals. Somebody will surprise a few query and everybody will say, “Oh, yeah, that’s query,” however then no person will look it up.
Margaret: Proper.
Flora & Frost: And I’m like, “You already know now we have entry to the web, proper?” [Laughter.] I’m all the time the one which’s like, “Nicely, let’s discover out.” So it’s that with any query that I’ve that pops up. It began with my quick neighborhood, after which plenty of that is now viewers asking questions on, “Hey, I’ve all the time been interested by this specific subject.” Typically I’ll begin studying about one thing, and that particular topic isn’t really very fascinating, however a facet article turns into the main focus. So it’s a fairly random course of, to be sincere.
Margaret: Yeah. It’s enjoyable. Like I mentioned, ever me outdoors, it’s similar to, “Why that? Why that? Why is that there? What’s that?”
Flora & Frost: Precisely.
Margaret: I’m simply this curious individual after I’m outdoors, much more than after I’m indoors.
Flora & Frost: Yep.
Margaret: As an illustration, you had a few items in several posts, a few items of seed beginning recommendation. And one which I liked, I feel it was in March this yr, you say, “Cease rising seeds for the meals you want you ate and develop what you actually eat.” [Laughter.]
Flora & Frost: Proper. Sure. I feel a lot of social media is so aspirational, it’s so cultivated, no pun supposed. And I feel it’s, the enemy of fine is ideal, so individuals will develop issues as a result of they’re like, “Nicely, I ought to like this factor. I ought to like kale. I ought to eat extra lettuce.” However the actuality is, in the event you’re eager to discover a connection along with your backyard and revel in it, you ought to be rising issues that you just really like. And that’s O.Ok. We don’t must gate-keep completely different greens.
Margaret: Proper. You steered potatoes, as a result of who doesn’t like potatoes, proper?
Flora & Frost: Sure. Yeah.
Margaret: Yeah.
Flora & Frost: We’re having fun with some pleasant homegrown potatoes as of late.
Margaret: Yeah. And so, talking of lettuce, which you simply mentioned, you could have one other publish that’s about ‘Iceberg’ lettuce and its story, which I had by no means heard. I didn’t know. So inform us the transient model of the ‘Iceberg’ lettuce story.
Flora & Frost: Positive. So ‘Iceberg’ lettuce was first launched by the Burpee Seed Firm within the Eighteen Nineties. And the factor that basically made it revolutionary is, as , ‘Iceberg’ lettuce has a extremely excessive water content material, it’s actually crispy. And in order that was the primary crop, no less than to my data, that was shipped trans-nationally in trains that have been filled with ice.
And earlier than then, in the event you have been within the middle of the nation, or in the event you have been in a spot the place it wasn’t in your rising season, over the winter, you have been actually counting on greens that have been canned or would retailer for months, and that obtained form of boring. So this was the primary alternative for individuals to obtain meals from a special rising zone. And it was revolutionary in that approach. It was a proof of idea for the flexibility to ship meals. After all, it has change into problematic in some methods [laughter], however that was the preliminary proof of idea of transport issues from different locations.
Margaret: Proper. So ‘Iceberg’ obtained shipped in these vehicles of ice across the nation, and yeah, I didn’t know that. And I didn’t even actually keep in mind how outdated it was, so it’s an oldie.
Flora & Frost: Yeah.
Margaret: And other people disdain it now and but, it’s a beautiful factor and it led the way in which in, as you mentioned, getting issues out of season from place to position and so forth.
Flora & Frost: Proper.
Margaret: In order that’s fascinating. Additionally seed-starting associated, you could have this publish about perlite. What’s perlite? Which I didn’t actually know both. Are you able to inform us what perlite is? [Photo above from the Perlite Institute.]
Flora & Frost: That was fascinating to me. And once more, that was a type of, as I’m potting up a houseplant, I’m like, “What are these little white issues in potting soil?” That it by no means occurred to me to look into it. In order that’s perlite. It’s used to make soil extra gentle and fluffy, so in the event you’re potting up one thing that it’s not heavy and also you don’t drown your roots. However I had all the time assumed that it was one thing artificial and it’s not.
Margaret: It appears like styrofoam virtually.
Flora & Frost: It appears like styrofoam, sure.
Margaret: Proper.
Flora & Frost: And I discovered after the truth that some cheaper soil firms will use styrofoam, which isn’t ideally suited. And principally, the way in which you possibly can inform the distinction is, in the event you press it between your fingers, if it crumbles and it’s arduous, that’s perlite. If it squishes, that’s styrofoam.
Margaret: Oh.
Flora & Frost: So perlite is definitely hydrated and heated obsidian, and obsidian is volcanic glass. So what occurs is, this volcanic glass is made after magma cools. It begins to hydrate over time from moisture from the air, or if it’s within the backside of a river mattress, it positive factors water molecules over time. After which, if that’s heated in a extremely scorching oven (which clearly needs to be industrial; you possibly can’t make this at dwelling), then it pops like popcorn. So these water molecules begin to transfer extra quickly and develop. And since there’s no approach for that tumbler to be versatile, it basically pops open and creates all of those little air pockets inside. In order that was fascinating, I had by no means thought of it and then-
Margaret: Didn’t realize it was obsidian, didn’t realize it was volcanic glass, what I imply? I didn’t know. Or I didn’t keep in mind if I did know, in order that was nice.
Flora & Frost: Positive.
Margaret: Yeah. And a fascination that you just had, that you just expressed in one among your posts about fall foliage and the colours that reveal themselves and so forth, was additionally one of many issues I puzzled about early on. And I keep in mind investigating, “What are these non-green pigments and why does that occur?” And so forth.
Flora & Frost: Proper.
Margaret: Yeah. In order that’s one thing, like in the intervening time, that we’re watching reveal in entrance of our eyes, proper?
Flora & Frost: Sure. I used to be investigating coloration modifications after which, basically, why leaves fall within the first place? Is it simply they die and fall off of the tree? And it turns on the market’s a way more energetic organic course of occurring, the place the tree is actually chopping the leaves off.
However yeah, studying about fall coloration, it offers one other layer of appreciation of the surprise that we’re seeing. And so, one of many issues that I discovered is the yellow that we see in leaves, that comes from a household of pigments known as carotenoids, they usually’re there all summer time. It’s simply that that’s coated up by the truth that chlorophyll, that shiny inexperienced coloration, is a lot extra seen.
Margaret: Proper.
Flora & Frost: However as chlorophyll manufacturing winds down because the season modifications, then that yellow begins to point out via.
Margaret: Yeah, I obtained then fully geeky, I keep in mind one million years in the past, in regards to the purple and reddish colours, the anthocyanins, and never simply those which might be revealed because the chlorophyll fades within the fall in some species, however the ones that sure vegetation that first come out of the bottom in spring not inexperienced, they arrive out of the bottom purplish or reddish-purple.
Flora & Frost: Positive.
Margaret: And as an illustration, a few natives, twinleaf, Jeffersonia diphylla, and Virginia bluebells, one other native, Mertensia, plenty of non-native woodland peonies, they arrive out of the bottom not inexperienced. And I used to be all the time like, “Why, why, why?” So yeah, all these rabbit holes. [Laughter.]
Flora & Frost: Completely. Nicely, and typically, my understanding is, a few of these smaller child leaves have some extent of anthocyanins for a similar motive that fall leaves do, is researchers assume that it most likely offers some extent of solar safety for extra fragile tissue. So I really like that, that vegetation have sunscreen, too.
Margaret: Sure, and it might additionally deter predation from early-arising herbivores, as a result of these pigments will not be as tasty, apparently. And there’s plenty of theories, so who is aware of?
Flora & Frost: Precisely. [Laughter.]
Margaret: I don’t know for certain. Yeah, but it surely’s so enjoyable to look these things up and browse and so forth. And such as you, I really like Latin plant names and what they reveal, the provenance that a few of them reveal. And lots of instances, it’s who the plant was named after. And also you say you develop plenty of bee balm and Monarda, and you probably did a narrative about what that’s named after, as an illustration.
Flora & Frost: Proper. Sure.
Margaret: Or who that’s named after. Yeah.
Flora & Frost: Nicolas Monardes. He was a Spanish doctor who lived within the 1500s. And most physicians, greater than a few hundred years in the past, have been physicians/botanists, as a result of we didn’t have artificial pharmacology at that time, and so it was individuals utilizing plant treatments. So he lived in Spain. And curiously, even if Monarda is native to North America, he by no means traveled to North America. He would acquire a wide range of plant samples from the ports in Seville, after which write about them, research them, however by no means really made the journey over. [Cover of book by Monardes, above.]
Margaret: Oh.
Flora & Frost: However he was an fascinating fellow. He turned obsessive about tobacco, and thought that tobacco was a panacea, a cure-all, and so wrote extensively on the entire illnesses that tobacco may remedy. And it actually gained momentum for some time, after which individuals weren’t getting higher, shockingly. [Laughter.]
Margaret: I’m so stunned.
Flora & Frost: Fell out of favor at that time, however yeah, he would listing a wide range of contagious illnesses and in any other case that may very well be supposedly cured by tobacco.
Margaret: Proper. After which, I keep in mind you wrote one about Amsonia, the native bluestar, one other native that has a… Nicely, it’s really a touring doctor, I feel it was named for, you mentioned.
Flora & Frost: Yeah. So I feel he was stationary, however the touring element was George Washington.
Margaret: Oh, O.Ok.
Flora & Frost: George Washington was touring via and was sick. And so he stopped on this city and John Amson was the doctor there. George Washington, apparently, and who is aware of if that is apocryphal or what have you ever, however he thought he was dying of tuberculosis. And John Amson was like, “Sir, this can be a frequent chilly.” So I assumed that was simply humorous, as a result of we all the time speak in regards to the man flu.
Margaret: [Laughter.] Oh, you do, do you? Man flu, I see.
Flora & Frost: My husband oftentimes, he and I’ll have the identical sickness, but it surely presents in another way.
Margaret: I see.
Flora & Frost: And so, George Washington was very involved that he was very sick, but it surely certainly was only a virus and he was fantastic.
Margaret: In order that was John Amson for whom Bluestars or Amsonia are named. That’s fascinating.
Flora & Frost: Yeah.
Margaret: So these birds. You do typically cowl birds, and there have been the vultures, with their bare, featherless heads, since you’re going to stay your head into the center of roadkill.
Flora & Frost: Proper.
Margaret: Rotted, lifeless animals, you higher not have feathers, as a result of it’s arduous to wash it off.
Flora & Frost: Precisely. Completely.
Margaret: Yeah. However you additionally did have a factor a few woodpecker, I neglect which one it was. Was it downy perhaps? [Downy woodpecker, above; photo from Wikimedia Commons.]
Flora & Frost: The downy woodpecker.
Margaret: And the way woodpeckers are form of constructed. Why don’t they get injured by banging their heads in opposition to… And that is one other factor that I went down the trail of years in the past, I keep in mind, looking for out extra about. So inform us slightly bit about it, in regards to the woodpecker’s particular attributes.
Flora & Frost: So their physiologic construction is fascinating. In order people, now we have this free floating bone in our neck known as the hyoid. And that’s the place our tongue is linked to. So the bottom of our tongue connects approach down there in our throat. And these woodpeckers even have a hyoid bone, however their hyoid is of their brow, proper? So their tongue extends all the way in which from their brow, round their cranium, after which out of their mouth. And it’s very stretchy, so their tongue can prolong fairly a methods. However what scientists have discovered is that, when they’re pecking, basically they use their tongue and contract it to function a helmet.
So while you get concussions, often it’s as a result of the mind bounces round inside the cranium. It’s vital for us to have further area within the cranium, as a result of if there are modifications in strain, you don’t wish to have that be deadly, and the identical factor is true with woodpeckers. You wish to have slightly bit of additional area, however not when you find yourself banging your head in opposition to one thing. And so, that tongue will contract and maintain the mind in place in order that they don’t injure themselves after they’re pecking. Which is simply fascinating.
Margaret: I keep in mind in, I feel it was 2016, a conservationist, scientist, Stephen Shunk, I feel he’s from the Pacific Northwest. He wrote the Peterson Information to Woodpeckers that yr, and I keep in mind interviewing him. And he was telling me additionally that they’ve little or no cerebrospinal fluid in comparison with, say, the human mind, the place our mind sloshes round in our heads, and that may trigger, in each instructions, backwards and forwards, growth, growth, repercussions from concussion.
Flora & Frost: Precisely.
Margaret: And that they’ve an entire, as he mentioned, I feel he informed me it was a “suite of diversifications.” They’ve particular ribs that different birds don’t have which have very robust muscle tissues connected to them, so the influence in that a part of the physique is minimized. Woodpeckers have been studied for designs for-
Flora & Frost: Helmet design.
Margaret: Yeah, helmet design for motorbike and soccer helmet, and medical analysis on shaken child syndrome.
Flora & Frost: Proper.
Margaret: It’s very, very fascinating. They’ve specialised toes that they’ll actually maintain on higher and to floor themselves, so to talk, and extra-stiff tail feathers, I feel additionally, which… And you’ll see that in the event you take a look at one among them, a facet view, an image of one among them on a tree, their tail is de facto pressed into the bark. Have you learnt what I imply? To stabilize them additional.
Flora & Frost: Yeah.
Margaret: And so they have particular eye… Their nictitating membrane, I feel that’s the way in which you say it, the third or further eyelid, it’s thicker than different birds’. They’ve their very own goggles. They’re really-
Flora & Frost: It’s so fabulous.
Margaret: … outfitted. I feel it’s simply extremely cool. Oh, now I’m being loopy, sorry. [Laughter.]
Flora & Frost: You’re not being loopy. No, I like it. I really like once we see designs in nature that we then attempt to make the most of for ourselves. I did a video on dragonflies and their distinctive flying mechanisms, and now we have tried to adapt that to navy helicopters. So we’ll see all of those designs in nature that actually are unbelievable, after which attempt to get as shut as attainable for ourselves.
Margaret: Proper. So I used to be simply curious. So I confessed at the start that, there I’m, swiping, taking a look at your stuff. And do you discover inspiration typically on Instagram itself?
Flora & Frost: Completely. I really like following different academic accounts, I really like following extra of the aesthetic gardening accounts as nicely. My backyard shouldn’t be essentially aesthetically pleasing, it’s as chaotic as my analysis type [laughter]. And so, it’s good to comply with different individuals the place issues are very fastidiously cultivated and simply benefit from the variety in gardens as nicely.
Margaret: So any favourite accounts you wish to name out, otherwise you’re not going to share? None of them involves your thoughts?
Flora & Frost: Oh, gosh.
Margaret: I really like taking a look at plenty of the general public gardens, clearly, that… You already know, for inspiration, that’s one of many issues.
Flora & Frost: Yeah. I really like following botanical backyard accounts, and so New York Botanical Backyard, the Brooklyn Botanic Backyard, in fact the Minnesota Arboretum, have to present them their due. And a wonderful place to go to in the event you do dwell in Minnesota.
Margaret: Another rabbit gap that you just’re down in the intervening time? Is there any topic that you just’re exploring proper now?
Flora & Frost: Sure. So really, my husband informed me that I wanted to attempt to make the Krebs cycle fascinating. And I informed him that’s past my functionality. [Laughter.]
Margaret: The Krebs cycle?
Flora & Frost: The Krebs cycle. So I don’t know in the event you keep in mind from biology, the Krebs cycle is the cycle of mobile respiration that enables cells to generate vitality, basically. And thru highschool, faculty, med college, I needed to study it and relearn it a number of instances. I mentioned, “Nicely, I can’t make the Krebs cycle fascinating, however the man who it’s named after, Hans Krebs, may be very fascinating.”
Margaret: Oh.
Flora & Frost: He was a German Jewish man who was on the verge of creating these discoveries proper on the time that Nazis got here into energy, and so was kicked out of Germany. After which mentioned, “Nicely, no drawback.” Moved to England, had all these fabulous discoveries beneath the British Empire, and I simply love when individuals get penalties of their very own actions.
Margaret: Sure.
Flora & Frost: So I really like that he’s now identified beneath that framework as an alternative of that discovery occurring beneath Nazi Germany.
Margaret: Nicely, fellow Margaret, aka Flora & Frost, thanks a lot. And thanks for giving me a spot to go and go to and distract myself from the world in the intervening time [laughter]-
Flora & Frost: Oh, thanks a lot.
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MY WEEKLY public-radio present, rated a “top-5 backyard podcast” by “The Guardian” newspaper within the UK, started its fifteenth yr in March 2024. It’s produced at Robin Hood Radio, the smallest NPR station within the nation. Hear domestically within the Hudson Valley (NY)-Berkshires (MA)-Litchfield Hills (CT) Mondays at 8:30 AM Jap, rerun at 8:30 Saturdays. Or play the Oct. 28, 2024 present utilizing the participant close to the highest of this transcript. You’ll be able to subscribe to all future editions on iTunes/Apple Podcasts or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).